This is a really massive bead. I have seen them on the Panjiyuan market in Beijing and I think they are most likely current production.
Please note, I am referring to the very large bead with small round decorations and the single square.

Whenever I see seal beads like this, that all look like they were made in the exact same way, (not the image, but the shape and drilling of the hole) I get suspicious. The original ones are really rare, so finding this many in one place.......

So your wonderful beads are ancient and they come from Borei Angkor region? When I look at your beads I can feel the heat and humidity of Southeast Asia -recalling how difficult it was to find much of interest. I feel you may need professional help to give you a clear assessment of your important collection.

Thank you for your information

The gold pieces at Angkor Borei

Believe your beads are an accumulation of both old and new. And the "etched" dzi beads are said by some to have "fallen from Heaven." And since the contemporary bead market has been flooded with this type in recent years, I suspect there may be a dzi bead factory in Heaven. Personally, I hope I don't get stuck in a factory making dzi beads in Heaven...

there are some great beads in this group, I especially like the figural beads.

Ma'am Beadwell

means that she is assessing my beads are fake?
It is a sorrow for me !!!!!!!!!!

Anyhow, I also thank you for contributing words

These types of beads at Angkor Borei
Associated with gold particles tend circular

Hello Ten Chrai,

I am Thai beads collector. I live in Bangkok.
In my collection I have some of beads in Khmer culture.
It's not look like the bead in your pictures.
On my opinion the pattern on the metal plate and the stamper look like new make.
DZI bead are not the culture of Funan.

Sincerely,
Mor

(Sorry for my poor English.)

Your picture from 2014-08-12 21:21 onward are like the ancient beads of Southeast Asia that I known.

My picture show you that my fake beads. They are not ancient.

Mor.

Thank you for your information,

These collectors are paying attention to the whole territory of the country of Cambodia, in addition, it is also paying attention to the land of the past. I want to mention is the Oc-Eo or O-keo, south of Vietnam today, a stronghold, a major trading port of the ancient Kingdom of FUNAM

It takes a great deal of courage to become an antiques dealer. And, I feel it is a useful experience to jump into the deep end of the swimming pool and swim with the sharks. Hopefully you will not drown.

But may I make a few generic suggestions?

1. Examine one bead at a time.
2. Try not to let pride get in the way.
....Humility will take you much further.
3. Do not rely on hearsay alone as evidence.
4. Always show respect for the opinions of others.
5. Try not to mix authentic beads with dubious ones.
6. Avoid asking for opinions on beads you are trying to sell.

Thanks for your help!
I would like to receive your opinions to myself.
Thank you very much

My Dear,

I am not an expert in Southeast Asian antiquities. However, I believe there at least two experts in this area participating in the Beadcollector Forum.

Sincerely,

I am glad this subject continued and seems to be resolved amicably.
I have said way too many things I regret and wish I could take back - but can't?
Evaluating objects from photos is obviously very tricky?
Some of beads that show up here ARE incredible!
According to Webster’s that doesn’t necessarily mean too much:

*adjective: incredible
1.impossible to believe.
"an almost incredible tale of triumph and tragedy"
synonyms: unbelievable, beyond belief, hard to believe, unconvincing, far-fetched, implausible, improbable, highly unlikely, dubious, doubtful; More
inconceivable, unthinkable, unimaginable, impossible;
informalhard to swallow, cock-and-bull
"I find his story incredible"
2.difficult to believe; extraordinary.
"the noise from the crowd was incredible"

What I think is really ‘special’, not incredible, is how people could discuss this intelligently and find a way through the confusion with understanding and some compassion for Andrea.
There are many voices on this forum (and some that functionally operate in the shadows).
Some are knowledgeable, respectful people who can converse without their egos getting in the way.
I really admire that and the people that exhibit wonderful objects and converse in community with good will (and sometimes humor). Now that is SPECIAL!

Thanks to so many - especially including Andrea, shinji, Fred & Will among many more……
ps: almost forgot one the most entertaining characters here - Mr. Dogboy!

Mrs. Beadwell, Not certain who you are as I have not seen your posting before, but I don't see you showing this man the same humility you list in your "Guidelines". Nor the respect, as unless I'm misunderstanding your postings, you seemed to be sarcastic or insolent in responding to his requests for our thoughts. I guess I am reacting to your rules & comments and felt the need to respond since there seems to be a growing number of people responding this way lately on this site.
Thank you for hearing me out.

Lynne

I returned to Canada just a few days ago, did some chores, pretended lots of others could wait, then sat down to enjoy catching up with the forum. But some of the responses to Andrea disappointed me - too much yapping and not enough sharing. I'm glad you're around - and Flor who jumped in just at the necessary moment, and Shinji, and many others, too, of course - to pull us back to the generosity I associate with this place.

Will

Thank you, Will. Just sent you an email telling you the same, but I do appreciate hearing you felt the same way! Lynne

The coins ancient Angkor Borei, material: silver

These coins are Tical denomination circa 1847 King Norodom 1

Dear Ten Chrai,

Welcome to the BCN. I think you may be the only contributor here from Cambodia, and it's good to have a voice from a country with such a long and rich history. I have spent a lot of time there myself over the past fifty years, including several visits in recent times to the archaeological sites in and around Angkor Borei in southeastern Cambodia. Just last month I spent a few days very close to there at An Giang in southern Vietnam where there's a very nice little museum with a lot of interesting Funan-era finds some of which date back to the period of French colonial archaeology.

May I just start by saying that as far as this forum is concerned it would be better to post just a few objects at a time with photos that are clear and detailed enough for the rest of us to see the surfaces and perforations of the beads, etc. Otherwise we just get swamped with informational overkill. If you do that, anything that is genuine is likely to get dismissed or overlooked.

As it is, my own first impression is that this is a very mixed bag. Some of the beads, such as the recent copies of zi beads, are, as others have pointed out, clearly not ancient, nor did they have anything to do with Angkor Borei. You only undervalue the other items by including them. Some of the agates and carnelians look to be recent Chinese production, but quite a lot of them are possibly authentic. It's difficult to know without more detail.

The ear ornaments are, I think, genuinely from the first half of the first millennium CE, perhaps even earlier from the Sa Huynh culture in Vietnam.

The silver coins used to be thought (by for instance the French archaeologist Malleret who did a lot of work in the area in the 1930s) to date from the Funan period, but now most coin experts would date them a lot later.

The square "gold" appliqués look very doubtful to me because of their Buddhist iconography. Buddhism didn't really come to Funan in any substantial way until about 500, which is when the kingdom (or whatever you call it) was beginning to lose power in the region. Almost all of these gold squares that I've seen are of secular/Hinduized imagery, elephants, flowers etc. Are the ones that you show actually high-grade gold? That at least would be helpful as a starting point.

On the other hand, the gold rings that you posted several minutes ago look entirely authentic to me. I have no doubts at all about them and would like to see much better pictures.

Most of the rock crystal beads look okay to me, and rock crystal was a much appreciated commodity at Funan sites.

Finally, the intaglio seals: this technique comes originally from West Asia and became quite popular in Funan, probably as a result of the strong Roman influence there. None of them (to the best of my knowledge) is drilled with a hole for suspension, so it seems that they must have been intended to be set into rings, and yet, (again to the best of my knowledge) none has been found in a ring setting. It's impossible to be sure about the ones you show without more detail. The first one you posted - the oval seal of Vishnu - might be good, though it's an unusual shape. Others again I'm doubtful of, especially the light, bright green one. Just to give these the attention they might deserve might take a day or so, so please don't ask too much of us.

To show an image of my own, here's a very nice chalcedony seal that comes from just to the east of Angkor Borei, first to fifth century CE. I got it a long time ago. It's an image of Hanuman, the monkey king who's a great hero of the Ramayana and an especially popular figure even today in Thailand, Lao and Cambodia. The carving is unusually fine because it shows not just the outline of his body but also details of the fur covering it.

All the best,

Will

I agree with RubyZane. I think we have all been in the situation where we have paid high prices for what we think are authentic beads only to find later they are fake. It can be a devastating experience. Some sensitivity and understanding would lighten the blow. Also when giving an opinion about the age of beads it would be great if posters would say why they have come to their conclusion. Mrs Beadwell is looking familiar now and if they are who I think they are, she/he is not someone to be taken seriously.

Thank you Will, your reply is very clear and Hanuman is very nice.

Mor

Hi Nishedha,

I think it depends on the angle of the body, also on the general composition. I know of several examples in the relief carving at Angkor Wat itself and the Baphuon, where the tail is not visible, but is assumed to be present.

Here's another image of Hanuman on an Angkor era bronze lime pot.

Cheers,

Will

What a wonderful image of Hanuman. I collect the fab old Hindu prints from India, where he is often so humanistic (is that a word?? :), but I love this representation of him. Really special! Thanks for sharing, Lynne

Thank you Will, you are already carrying a torch for revelation to many people about the true values ​​of the ancient areas in Cambodia and the vicinity of the ancient kingdom.

I invite anyone who wants to learn about this culture should read more book like the one below:

Funan Kingdom was identified as an ancient country of Cambodia today - the first state to be politically - powerful economy in Southeast Asia in the early 6th century BC .

The country leave the Oc- Eo culture . This is a culture , ancient civilization earliest Southeast Asia . Funan had a period of formation and development of extremely strong , but after the event should have been decline and disappear . All temples , palaces were buried in the ground for thousands of years . Back then it was only known through the Funan kingdom discovered the Oc Eo culture from the first excavations of the French archaeologist Louis Malleret mound at Oc Eo ( Hope Khe commune , Thoai Son district , provincial An Giang ) in 1944 . With what Louis Malleret findings , along with the results of the archaeological colleagues Vietnam later painted vividly on ancient cultures existed and flourished in the Mekong Delta first century to the seventh century AD .

Dear fellow forumites, I have been lurking on this site for years. And I was initially appalled by the Cambodian beads post.

But, I could have done this differently and now I wish I had. I really did believe that it would be transparent to most bead collectors that the Funan attributions were doubtful. And I should have remembered that most collectors here are mainly knowledgeable concerning Venetian glass trade beads.

Nevertheless, as Will said: "A very mixed bag...Some of the beads, such as the recent copies of zi beads, are, as others have pointed out, clearly not ancient, nor did they have anything to do with Angkor Borei. You only undervalue the other items by including them. Some of the agates and carnelians look to be recent Chinese production….The silver coins… The square "gold" appliqués look very doubtful to me because of their Buddhist iconography. Are the ones that you show actually high-grade gold? (they don't look like it)…The intaglio seals…"and so forth.

Will was kind in letting this collector down gently. And I have much to learn from Will's educational and gentlemanly approach. If I had trusted the sincerity of the collector, I would have proceeded differently. Now, I wish I had trusted that this was not the typical ruse -as we often see perpetuated on eBay.

For this mistrust and misunderstanding, I am truly sorry. More importantly, I should have been more ladylike.

In any case, don't worry. You will NEVER hear from me again.

This is an interesting and puzzling image of Hanuman. It's a ritual bronze knife from the Angkor period (12th century) and on the handle there's a figure of Hanuman who is biting into the head of what appears to be a deer. The knife is, as far as I know, completely unique. It was presumably used for ritual purposes and on the underside, beneath the figures, there's a seal that may relate to the temple in which it was used, or possibly to the name of a donor. It's unusual too because the blades on these knifes were more frequently made of iron attached to a bronze handle and many of them have disappeared through corrosion.

I can't find any reference in the Ramayana to any specific episode that this image is referring to. Hindu scholars disagree as to whether any meat eating ever occurs in the story. What we do know is that Hanuman had voracious appetites, for food as well as for sex; he did for instance try to eat the sun thinking it was a ripe mango! It's probably this appetite, along with his bravery, his wit and his loyalty that made him such a popular folk hero.

But if Nishedha or anyone else here knows of anything more specific that would explain this little scene, I'd love to know about it.

All the best,

Will

In this side view you can see how Hanuman is decked out like a prince with bangles around his arms, a necklace and a crown and flowers in his hair.

I think he was so popular as a folk hero, because he straddled the world between gods, humans and animals, so he could get away with the kind of behaviour that would have been frowned on by conventional moralists.

W

I read several times the Ramayana (I can read books, specially long ones, untold number of times, because I forget everything on them instantly) but I cannot recall a scene of Hanuman fighting a bull -- although Ravana may have shape-shifted into a bull during a fight.
I found the attached image of this statue on the internet.It is in Kampong Cham Town, in Cambodia,reportedly illustrating "Hanuman fighting a bull".
An also perhaps a related story is that of Vali, the king of the monkeys, killing a demon called Dundubhi, which being 'horribly dark and hairy', can be pictured as a buffalo.. Vali, king of the monkeys and elder brother of Sugriva, was eventually killed by Sugriva's ally Rama, who sacred him in turn as king of the monkeys. Hanuman was Sugriva's top military advisor.

Yes, indeed.

I'm familiar with the Ramayana also, and Hindu imagery in general, and am drawing a blank on this one. When I see a bull, I think only of Durga slaying Mahishasura. And the figure on the knife -- and the Cambidian sculpture you found, Nshida -- sure isn't Durga . . .

It is Hanuman. Apparently it is written on this curious plaque. Guess who paid for it.

Carlsberg? A beer company? No idea!

Thanks, Nishedha (and Ali and Ann) for your help.

I think you're right, Nishedha, in that this probably must be a bull that Hanuman is biting. I've thought that for the most part ever since I bought the knife twenty years ago, but was persuaded quite recently that it was more likely a deer by a Thai friend who pointed out that bulls traditionally in SE Asia are portrayed as having wide and long horns (like the one on the modern Carlsberg statue in Kampong Cham). He was quite right; that's how bulls almost always appear from the stylized horns on Ban Chiang bells right the way up to an Angkor era bull (attached) on the inscribed stone plinth of a seated Buddha figure in Angkor Borei (where this thread began).

That is - with one exception. The exception is Nandi, Shiva's mount, who is generally shown in an Indianized style with relatively short and close-together horns (see an attached bronze from the Phnom Penh National Museum). So, is the bull that Hanuman is biting Nandi? I think, possibly, yes. There's no such story in the Ramayana, but one of the symptoms of the Ramayana's immense popularity is the way in which is has spawned so many side stories. There's an intriguing hint in Philip Lutgendorf's fascinating book, Hanuman's Tale: The Message of a Divine Monkey (OUP, 2006), where he tells us of one of the many birth stories of Hanuman:

"Nandi, Shiva’s bull, is an embodiment of his (Shiva's) eleventh Rudra-manifestation. During Ravana’s campaign of univeral conquest, he attacks even Mount Kailash, where he encounters Nandi. Although himself devoted to Shiva, Ravana cannot resist making fun of Nandi’s animal shape and laughingly remarks that his face resembles that of a monkey. In anger at this insult, Nandi curses Ravana to eventually die through the intervention of monkey-faced beings. Later, he requests of Shiva the boon of expressing his devotion through the lowly monkey form, and incarnates on earth as Hanuman, the bull among monkeys."

So Hanuman and Nandi are in some versions of the story very closely linked. That still doesn't fully explain what is happening on the knife, but I think it does suggest that the scene is probably more playful than warlike, two divine animals from opposite ends of the spectrum interacting. Perhaps what is shown is yet another of those many local side stories that keep on proliferating, even to this day in Kampong Cham.

Finally, to everyone else, who is quite rightly feeling that this has nothing to do with beads, my apologies for having dragged us down yet another rabbit hole!

Cheers,

Will

Thanks, Ten Chrai. That's a really lovely image. Presumably Lord Shiva on Nandi, right?

Best,

Will

Dear Nishedha,

I think your pic is Pali killed Torapee (the water buffalo) on the Ramakien, which is Ramayana in Thai version.
I know by the crown of the monkey and the story of Pali and Torapee.
Pali was Hanuman's uncle, he was King of Keetkin city and have green body.
Torapee was very strong buffalo, who killed his father (Torapa).
When Torappe killed his father, he challenge with Pali.
They fight on 7 days in the cave.
Finally Pali killed Torapee because the angels who protect Torapee were quit.
Sorry, I don’t tell you for more stories because my English is poor.

You can read on this link but it is Thai language.
http://www.bloggang.com/viewdiary.php?id=nayrotsung&month=04-2009&date=09&group=5&gblog=7
And this link is Ramakian in English.
http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Thai/literature/ramakian/introduction.htm

Best regards,
Mor

Thanks, Mor, that's very helpful. You've certainly explained what's happening in that statue in Kampong Cham. Incidentally, for anyone who wants to read the story in the original version of the Ramayana, the names of these characters there are Vali (the king of the monkeys and, as you say, Hanuman's uncle) and Dundubhi, the buffalo demon. (Dundubhi in Sanskrit also means a large drum.)

I wonder, Mor, if you have any thoughts about what story is being referred to on the knife handle?

All the best,

Will

Thanks,Will.

For the knife....
I think the monkey on knife is Vali.
Vali has the power in combat more than Hanuman.
Vali is son of Indra (the leader of Gods), Hanuman is son of Vayu (God of wind).
Vali has special power from Indra. when he fight, rival's power would be reduced by half.
He is the best warrior and has victory over Ravana several times.
He had a prominent role in the story is that be beat Pali.
I think the owner might want to put that faith into the knife with the power to overcome evil.

Other reasons, on the characteristics of mask, Vali is the King. He has a crown on his head.
But Hanuman is the warlord. He hasn’t crown and has a special fang in the center of his mouth. The mask of Hanuman must be open mouth.

This is my opinion.

Your friend,
Mor.

Thanks once again, Mor.

You may very well be right, and your explanation as to how the image functions in relation to the knife's possible function and its representation of the power to overcome evil makes a lot of sense. But of course, Hanuman also would embody that same power.

However, we're back again with a problem relating to the bull-like figure on the knife, which, if the monkey is Vali, would have to be Torapi, the demon buffalo whom he kills. But on the knife, this is definitely not a buffalo (unlike the modern statue that Nishedha showed us). So we're back again with a puzzle, though a different one! And the monkey really does seem to be nibbling on it quite happily, not fighting it.

Also, there are actually many, many representations of crowned Hanumans in Angkor-era sculpture, especially the bronzes. Almost all divine beings are portrayed by the Khmers as bejewelled and crowned, regardless of whether they were "royal." The most frequent representation of Vali actually is in his death - a tragic and disquieting moment because he is killed by Rama. Hanuman, on the other hand is always shown triumphantly alive, frequently as a figure on the head of ceremonial battle standards. Here (attached) is one example; there are several others in Emma Bunker's beautiful book Adoration and Glory: the Golden Age of Khmer Art, published by Riverbooks in Bangkok.

But in deference to your interpretation, I'm going to refer to the monkey on the knife as "Vali or Hanuman with the Head of a Bull." That seems to cover the different bases.

All the best,

Will

Hi Will,

I found some story about cow and Hanuman on Ramkian.
Lakshmana was stabbed with a spear on three times.
At the last time, Ravana use the special spear to stabbed Lakshmana.
The name of this spear is Kabillapat.
For help Lakshmana, Hanuman must to find three medicines.
One of the medicine is Nandi’s dung.

Mor.

This pic is come from Ayutthaya era.

Welcome to the forum Ten Chrai!

Please tell us more about these rings. I WANT them.

Just Fred

Are you still interested in ancient gold from Angkor Borei?

Nice to see all the agate beads. I used to get them all the time at Chatuchak Market in Bangkok. They were always said to come from Cambodia and I assume they were coming via Poipet into Aranchaphratet. Sadly I don't see them anymore in Thailand. There was book: Khmer Gold: Gifts for the Gods: Emma Bunker and Douglas Lateford,which dated them circa pre 600CE excavated in Banteay Meanchy Cambodia. The Thais love this stuff. Anyway some nice pieces!

Angkor Borei Antique
cow earthenware