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No country for old men...
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Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
12/13/2014, 11:26:00

Sorry for the cryptic subject line, it has a two-fold meaning. One being that I have been feeling very old lately and apologize for being absent for so long. I will try to be more active on the forum and in the field that we all love.

The other reference is a Moche culture pectoral pendant (see below) that I acquired a year or so ago. It is quite large, about 4 inches across and is made of silver (at least it appears so), though it is heavily encrusted. I believe that it may depict what is sometimes referred to in Moche cultures as "The Old-Man Deity", though I do not now much more about it. The time period is about 100 to 800 AD, from coastal Peru.

It is difficult to be sure, but there appears to be quite a bit of detail in the sculpture. My question to the general audience is: Should I clean it? If so, what would be the safest approach. I have used lemon juice before on copper alloys, but I fear it can be too caustic. Does anyone know a safe way to clean most of the encrustation off?

Warm wishes to all,

Jan Skipper, Mosquitobay

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Another picture...
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
12/13/2014, 11:27:28

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It takes weeks in an electrolytic solution
Re: Another picture... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
12/13/2014, 12:15:14

You don't want to etch away the underlying silver/copper, just de-oxidize it. People who do conservation for marine salvage and archaeology have lots of technical knowledge and skill on this topic, but I don't know how much is available for free.

At any rate, DO NOT apply any sort of solvent.

The baking soda/aluminum foil/hot water method is an electrolytic technique for silver only. But I would never try it on something old, would do my best to find a professional conservator first.



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Thanks any opinions on the item?
Re: It takes weeks in an electrolytic solution -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
12/13/2014, 13:07:29



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Coin conservation
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lopacki Post Reply
12/13/2014, 16:56:38

Jan,
A friend that conserved hundreds if not thousands of ancient coins told Suzi and I what we needed to do with very grungy metal. Bronze Copper and Silver.

Suzi and I have conserved more than a few old Byzantine and Roman coins with very good results. I have attached two images of an 850 year old Byzantine coin to show the results of this type of conservation.As you can see in the images the results can be amazing.

Make a saturated salt water solution, enough so you can hang your piece in it. Put the solution in a glass/plastic container. Wrap your piece in a few places with copper wire fine but not too fine, if you have three or four wires bring them together up top and twist them together a bit. Get an old piece of stainless steel and old butter knife will work.

Get yourself (thrift stores are great for this)an old wall plug transformer, most go from 120volt to either 9, 6, or 3 volt. The kind used for calculators and such. Get a three volt (the best)I would get a few if they have them.

Cut the plug that goes into the electronic item 3 volt output. Split the wires and put an alligator clip on each wire. Put one clip on the copper wire twist and the other on the stainless steel piece that are in your solution keep the stainless steel from touching the piece being worked on. Plug the transformer in and look in your solution if bubbles are coming off of the piece to be cleaned this is right if off the stainless switch the clips.

Depending on how much grung is on the piece will determine how long this process will take. We usually slowly spin the coin back and forth so the electricity is not a constant in one spot. Every once in awhile remove the piece and see if things are lifting, if so pick at them with a tooth pick to help in removal.

Might be best if you want to give me a call so I can make this a bit clearer. I assure you that this process works perfect and seeing as though it works at such a microscopic level on the metal you have little chance of causing damage to it.

All my best .......... Danny

contact me if you want my phone number.

2_byz.jpg (119.4 KB)  2_byz2.jpg (115.6 KB)  


Modified by lopacki at Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 16:57:57

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Re: Coin conservation: Wow, thanks Danny.
Re: Coin conservation -- lopacki Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake Post Reply
12/14/2014, 13:51:37

www.nomadbeads.com

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Please do not dare to touch it!
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
12/14/2014, 07:29:33



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Thanks for the advice. I am still deciding if I should or should not clean it
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
12/14/2014, 07:55:28



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I'd just love and accept the crustiness, as with old men! :)
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
12/14/2014, 07:58:19

Greetings, Jan. I think of you often and am so happy to see you posting. Happy Holidays!



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Oooh, good one, Joyce!
Re: I'd just love and accept the crustiness, as with old men! :) -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
12/15/2014, 20:04:59

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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I think I would clean it.
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Hendrik Post Reply
12/14/2014, 09:33:17


If you take a look at Danny´s result. What a difference! Now it is possible to enjoy the original coins and images instead of just the form.

All the best,
Hendrik



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Hi Jan! Hi Jan! Hi Jan! *waving excitedly*
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: joybrisighella Post Reply
12/14/2014, 09:39:45



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Feels good, to see you back, Jan!
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Uwe Post Reply
12/14/2014, 11:03:56



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Re: No country for old men...
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
12/14/2014, 14:17:01

Hi Jan,

It is an interesting piece and difficult dilemma.
I would sell it and pass the problem on to the buyer.
But first, I would commission an appropriate display stand.

Frederick

Modified by Frederick at Sun, Dec 14, 2014, 17:53:58

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I vote for cleaning / conserving
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
12/14/2014, 21:34:32

The piece was made to be viewed without 1000+ years of corrosion - I would use Danny's expert advice and clean it so you can appreciate the artistry in its original form.

I think there is a wax that can be applied after cleaning to protect the surface and slow down the re-oxidation so that it doesn't blacken up in short order after the cleaning. I'm sure Danny can advise on this as well.



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My advice on getting old....and IMHO
Re: No country for old men... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
12/15/2014, 20:19:45

Never look in a full-length mirror.
And only use a mirror in soft light.

I took a lot of Asian art history classes in college, and there was one passionate professor who spent an entire class arguing the merits of cleaning vs. leaving a metal object in the state it was found, especially ancient bronzes.

Apparently, it's an age-old debate. There are those who believe the object should be restored to the artist's original 'vision' for the piece--to restore it to the state it was originally.

Then there are those who argue the artist knew patina would age the piece, and created it to become even more beautiful and worn with age. To clean up an object and restore it to its original state was to remove its history.

I think she said throughout history, one approach or the other would gain ascendancy.

When I lived in Michigan lo-these-many-years-ago, a friend took me for my first visit to the Detroit Institute of Art. There was a small bronze statue of a burro, almost hidden in the basement. My friend said when she was a kid, it used to be in the main entrance. Over the years, thousands of children would see the burro as soon as they entered, and rush to pat its back and ears and nose.

After decades of this touching, not only did the patina disappear, but the actual details in the burro's fur wore away. Where children had petted it was worn smooth and golden, in contrast to the dark patina and carved/molded details. To preserve it, it was moved to the basement where fewer children would see it.

She said she understood, but she felt an important period of her childhood was put in the basement, too. :^) And that petting the burro was part of a child's museum experience, and probably encouraged and enriched their experience with art.

I remember standing there looking at it, and I think I touched its ears and nose and back, too. I remember wishing I'd seen it as a child. In a way, I think this memory is one I've incorporated into my own artwork, making things that people are allowed to touch.

I think you know what you'd LIKE to do, and you are also concerned about doing "the right thing". I think the artifact is in your possession, and you should do whatever feels right for YOU. If it would bring you joy to see the original state or simply to clean it up so you can see ANYTHING, do it. If you feel it should stay in its current state, do nothing. As Danny said, you could start the cleaning process and stop when it's 'good enough' for you.

hth, and welcome back! We've missed you.
Luann

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

Modified by Luann Udell at Tue, Dec 16, 2014, 12:58:47

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