Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/12/2014, 19:39:47
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Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/12/2014, 19:40:59
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Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/12/2014, 19:42:12
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Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/13/2014, 20:04:04
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Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/13/2014, 20:44:56
Hi Lynne, Red Mountain would know much more about these than I do, but I don't think I've seen these from the Ordos culture. I'd associate them much more with Afghanistan/Bactria in the first millennium BCE and possibly earlier. But given the enormous distances that nomadic folk travelled, these two cultures may actually have been in fairly close trading contact. Attached is a Bactrian bone tiger. Cheers, Will
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Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/14/2014, 10:00:35
I appreciate your thoughts on these. I'm somewhat familiar with Afghanistan/Bactria, but will do some more research. I really have/had no idea if these were indeed even old, but I try to buy my pieces based on how much I like them, rather than if they are legitimately from a certain period. That way I can't be too disappointed if I've been taken advantage of. Nobody else bid on these, so I was curious, so try to find out more. They do look like they have some age, but I've learned enough from beadcollector to know how wrong we can all be sometimes. Thanks for your help. Lynne
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Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/14/2014, 10:01:21
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Posted by: ann Post Reply
10/14/2014, 13:21:53
My knowledge of the Ordos culture is rusty, but I studied it long before I was seriously interested in beads. For art historians, it's primarily a bronze culture, nomadic and semi-nomadic, with a material culture made up primarily of pole-tops, knives, belt buckles, horse equipment (rein rings, psalia), and the like, all in animal form. Don't remember anything like the dice beads, but I wasn't paying much attention to beads at the time. I'll see if I can scrape up anything in my books & notes . . .
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Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/14/2014, 20:05:49
Hi Ann, Here are a couple of quite nice examples of the kind of objects you are talking about: a lovely little bird pendant, and a knife with a decorative handle. Both are late first millennium BCE. They used to be reasonably priced, but not any longer. Cheers, Will
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Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/15/2014, 12:22:13
I think perhaps that Will may be more correct than the seller on the origin of these beads. I really appreciate your knowledge so thank you both. Lynne
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Posted by: ann Post Reply
10/16/2014, 09:42:19
Yes Will, they're good examples, and not reasonably priced at all! And of course, some repros are now floating around -- beware of knives, in particular. But the real things are lovely in a very compact way; many of them are nice, rounded, full-bodied hooved (and variously horned)animals, either standing with all four feet together (pole tops) or, more distrubingly, with legs hanging, as if the animal were impaled . . . or they depict curled felines. Still looking for bead info. Will let you know if I find anything (I have some old excavation reports).
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Posted by: ann Post Reply
10/17/2014, 13:32:07
Just ran across this example --
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Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/20/2014, 14:31:43
Hi Ann, I just took some photos of a few more pieces. First is a bronze harness decoration, with a mask-like human head at each end. Human images on Ordos bronzes are rare, though they seem to be more common on horse harness appliqués than on any items of human jewellery. I'm interested by the way in which the two faces are different - even perhaps ethnically different. It's from the second half of the first millennium BCE, like all of these pieces. It has two suspension/attachment loops on the back which mean it would work very nicely as a pendant too. Will
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Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/20/2014, 14:38:09
This could be a decorative pin, but I think it may have functioned primarily as an awl - to pierce leather for instance. Really, decorative and practical functions coincided in these nomadic cultures - everything was decorated. Their portrayal of animals is usually very precise, but I'm not sure what this one is. It's very like the wolves on other Ordos bronzes that I have but this one seems to have horns! W
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Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/22/2014, 07:52:01
Ooh, this one is particularly interesting. I really like this piece!
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Posted by: ann Post Reply
10/22/2014, 12:59:43
Happy to see this! It's just this kind of slightly crazy animal depiction that was the subject of my master's thesis, long long ago . . . a type of nomadic metalwork in northern & western Asia in the first millennium BC . . . which is why I was burrowing around in the Ordos area, among other northern and western Asian places! You're lucky to have some examples, Will! My entire personal collection of nomadic metalwork consists of one bronze Scythian arrowhead excavated in Egypt. But I've given up feeling sorry for myself. Took over 30 years, but I'm OK now . . . (whine).
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Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/20/2014, 14:48:03
The gazelle could come from anywhere across the Steppes. It's very well-cast, could be a pendant or a finial. The ox is very simply made but graphic. W
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Posted by: rubyzane Post Reply
10/22/2014, 07:53:50
Will and Ann, thank you for sharing your knowledge & photos on these pieces. I have never seen these before & knew nothing of them. So nice to learn about something I knew nothing about. Thank you both! Lynne
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Posted by: ann Post Reply
10/23/2014, 09:01:05
Always a pleasure to open a door. Almost as nice as having a door just open in frot of you, which has happened to me more than once on this forum!
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Posted by: ann Post Reply
10/22/2014, 13:04:23
If you're interested, I'll see if I can find pics of some belt clasps that have human figures on them -- wrestling if I remember right.
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Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/22/2014, 20:17:38
Thanks, Lynne; thanks, Ann. Yes, there are occasional human figures, and I'd be happy to see more. I remember a belt plaque of a man apparently being eaten by a tiger. I think there are probably more human representations in the Scythian cultures to the west. I'll attach a well-known one supposedly from the Ordos region that's in the British Museum; I've always had doubts about it and now, I notice, there's a question mark beside it in the museum catalogue. These representations almost always show men with non-Chinese nomadic features. One of the faces on my harness fitting conforms with that, but the other looks very "oriental," which is definitely unusual; I think it may relate to the way in which this culture looks both ways, towards the nomadic west, but also to the more settled southeast. Cheers,
Will
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Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
10/23/2014, 08:43:28
Thanks Will
It is very nice to be remembered.
But since I am not a historian nor art researcher
I would still like to share my shabby experiences on ancient culture erdos with some examples the first example is a bone goat? head which I got several years ago in the city Xian shannxi prov. I believe it's from the north part of the province where used to be the border between Han and Hun people.and this piece belongs to the Hun people,so called erdos culture.
you can see the green color and patina on the bone surface
compared with the so called dice beads posted by Lynne
the big difference is the status of the bone itself. you can imagine the differences of bones of the age 2000 years and 100 years. the second are some outstanding gold pieces of erdos culture from chinese museums. one is the famous crown found in innermogolia in 1960s. the other is a wonderful belt ornament in shape of a horse.
(C.T.Loo had published a book about ancient chinese bronze wares in 1920's most of the collections in his book are from erdos culture)
To me erdos is a culture of metal with very unique and impressive design of its daily uesd objects. the representational way of expression of fierce and temperate animals and designs have strong influence to Han arts and arts of other nomadic peoples like Donghu of the same age and later Xianbei. the third is my recent acquisition from Ningxia prov. some gold pieces in the shape of cutted shell which I believe they were uesd by Huns as ornaments . this kind of thing started very early even before the time of Hun people and probably uesd as money at the very beginning.
the gold one is very rare and obviously it is the imitation of the real shell one.Both are of the same time.
at last the two beads bronze piece from Will is wonderful
I like it very much.
thanks you all R.M.
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Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
10/23/2014, 08:47:34
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Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
10/23/2014, 08:54:48
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