I love both sets of beads, but they really seem different structurally to me...note the "eye" on the bead in the second photo...

first picture again...

Mel,
I am almost sure that these beads are modern Chinese production. I posted the name of a seller a few days ago and if you take the time to go and check out his sales on Ebay I think you will agree.

Regarding "Sulemani" agate beads, the best thing to do here is an image search and then look at the beads that dealers of ancient beads show, these type agates are very distinctive, the story is that this stone was from King Solomon's mine but who knows.

All my best ...... Danny

and the reason is that I have seen strands of these banded agate round beads hanging in the gem markets of Chinatown, Manila, and also in China.
I am returning to Manila in a few days, and hope to get some photos.
Of course this could also mean that this sort of agate stone has been valued for generations, continuing today, and there must be many older stones of this type on the market too.
I like mixing them with white or black glass, but do not have any examples left to show.

A popular stone, especially in the Victorian era and in the African trade. Carefully cut beads came from Idar-Oberstein, as has been discussed before. I haven't trawled the archives, but I know a lot of stuff is there. This type of banded agate also ties in with the whole history of cameos and seals.

A lot of banded agate from China nowadays, presumably to meet demand in Southeast Asia where it seems to have been perennially popular for millenia.

Your carefully matched beads in the first strand seem antique European to me, if only because they aren't as beat-up looking as much older Asian beads.

If you refer to the "Jewellery" page of the linked website, you will find that Scottish agate seems to have been often featured as set cabochon stones rather than beads, perhaps more so than the black and white agate beads and other items cut in Idar Oberstein.

There are as many kinds of banded agate as places where it is mined.

The group of agates in your first image look Scottish indeed (i.e. mined in Scottland). These were highly fashionable in Victorian times, and still much sought after today. Yours may be Victorian as well. I am attaching a necklace made of Scottish agates strung with gold.

Suleimani is the commercial name used for banded agate beads in Islamic countries. I have been unable to find the reason for it. Some sellers say these beads come from King Solomon's Mines, which is far out but unreal. Others only use this word for banded agate beads of white/grey background and many comparatively thin black lines -- although there is no cultural reason for it, banded agates of other kinds being also called Suleimani from the Middle East to Southeast Asia.
My guess is that in old times the bulk of this stone was coming from mines located in the Suleiman Range (about the modern Iran/Pakistan border) probably to be cut in India, I mean Greater India (before partition).
But another script would be that the name refers to the Jugdment of Solomon(1 Kings 3:16-28) hereafter as told in Wikipedia:
'Two young women who lived in the same house and who both had an infant son came to Solomon for a judgment. One of the women claimed that the other, after accidentally smothering her own son while sleeping, had exchanged the two children to make it appear that the living child was hers. The other woman denied this and so both women claimed to be the mother of the living son and said that the dead boy belonged to the other.
After some deliberation, King Solomon called for a sword to be brought before him. He declared that there was only one fair solution: the live son must be split in two, each woman receiving half of the child. Upon hearing this terrible verdict, the boy's true mother cried out, "Oh Lord, give the baby to her, just don't kill him!" The liar, in her bitter jealousy, exclaimed, "It shall be neither mine nor yours—divide it!"
The king declared the first mother as the true mother, as a true, loving mother would rather surrender her baby to another than hurt him, and gave her the baby. King Solomon's judgment became known throughout all of Israel and was considered an example of profound wisdom.'

The beads would be then called Suleimani because they are so divided in two halves by the white ecuatorial line.Se non è vero, è ben trovato...

Thank you all for your kind replies and information, this is just what I needed.

Nisheda, very interesting analysis of the Suleimani name! That is what I was afraid of regarding the name, that it has been bastardized for market conditions so now there is no value in the name. Do you think the second agate necklace might be Chinese in origin rather than Scottish? The second necklace has a lot of druzy-like banding and much thinner and more numerous bands.

I do think these are Victorian. The estate that I got them from had a large amount of old Victorian mourning jewelry, I picked up some nice Whitby jet beads as well. I am showing some of the jet in the photo attached.

In this collection were also some large rock crystal beads and a carved hardstone necklace of what I think might be very nice dark green jade and either red jade or carnelian with faceted rock crystal spacer beads all set in sterling.

Nothing in what was being offered appeared to me to be younger than the 1930s or 40s.

I'll do a separate post on an interesting necklace from this collection that I think might actually be Whitby jet with Venetian glass applied to it! I look forward to hearing opinions on that, too!

Thanks again for all your feedback, I appreciate it very much.

-Mel

I cannot say for sure about the other beads. They may be Chinese or European, but considering the context, most probably European.

It is not so much that "it has been bastardized for market conditions" as that is has been a commercial name from the start. Which does not mean that "there is no value in the name": names are but ways of communicating about things, and commercial names are of great value -- "millefiore" can be said to be used as a commercial name as well!
In the Tibet/China cultural area, banded agate beads are called Bhaisajyaguru beads. (English for Bhaisajyaguru: the Buddha of Medicine). It has been reported that this is also a commercial name, and not so old at that. The name is significant, though: it refers to the fact that since old times such beads have been valued for their healing qualities. In the Islamic world people use them in various ways. Wearing them against the skin is supposed to be a sure way of preventing strokes. In rural Pakistan, a tiny fragment of a banded agate bead is (was?) crushed into powder, diluted in water and drunk by women in danger of miscarriage, as a way to easy their child labours -- and this points also in a subtle way to the Judgment of Solomon, doesn't it?

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=get&cG=9333133333&zu=3933313333&v=2&gV=0&p=

Some of my agate beads show a brown layer when illuminated from behind, similar to your beads, Mel.
Also note the graduated sequence, similar to yours.

I know very little about stone beads.
Thought I'd show you some of the well carved beads I photographed in Idar Oberstein. All of these are made of Brazilian agate.

All considered, perhaps a lot of the commonly called Scottish banded agate beads are in fact from Idar-Oberstein...

June 2022.

This dialogue took place at a time when I was not participating at BCN Forum—and I am seeing it for the first time today.

By now I have been dealing with the questions instigated by conflicting information for what now seems like an almost daily group of inquiries. I have responded to these questions at Facebook more times than I can count. I will make a few points here.

1) The most important thing to know about the beads in-question here. (And in contradiction to opinions expressed in some replies.) Mel has said that the beads were ID'd as "Scottish agate." I cannot disagree with that—on the face of things. But what people (apparently) do not understand that the banded agate beads and elements used in Scottish agate artifacts ACTUALLY CAME FROM IDAR-OBERSTEIN. So it is not mistaken to compare these beads to Scottish agate, and it is correct that the beads and elements are actually from Idar-Oberstein, Germany. So, the agate was not "mined in Scotland." And, in fact, the agate is color-enhanced using the typical German methods of caramelization, carbonization, and beizen coloring.

2) Some opinions I hold, based on my experience. I think there are four classes of beads that are very similar in appearance, and are easily confused with each other. And people who don't understand this are contributing to the confusion. AND, they will argue with me about it (because they don't know the facts). For the sake of simplicity I call these "one-line agate beads." (This is a name used by others as well, whether they understand the sorting issues or not.)

3) Certain sellers of these beads insist they are "Sulemani beads." (Spelled various ways.) Based upon my 40+ years of experience with Central Asian beads, my opinion is that "Sulemani" was made-up about ten years ago. (At the very least, if it were a local name, somewhere, it has been actively promoted, and is now said to be the "traditional name for these beads"—which is a proposition I sincerely doubt.) And it was made-up as a false story intended to be an interest-garnering name that some people will gravitate to. So it's all PR and false advertising. Suleman the Magnificent had nothing (zero) to do with these beads (!). In the Himalayan region, one-line agate beads can be referred to as "bhaibasyaguru." (Not everyone agrees this name is used by Himalayan people. But some do. More about this shortly.) Further, there IS a traditional name, in India, for Indian beads. And this is Babaghori—named for Babaghor, who was admired as the "patron saint of Indian agate beadmaking." Babaghori would encompass a broader variety of banded agate beads, but would be inclusive of one-line beads.

4) In the briefest terms possible—the four classes of these beads are as follows: A) There are ancient beads from India, that may be in the range of some 2000 years old (+ or -), that became popular in Central Asia, and possibly across Asia. B) There are factory sites in India where these beads are being retrieved from the ground. Some are unfinished, and are drilled to become usable beads. But no one (that I am aware) says word one about any of this. it is assumed that people will believe these beads have been handed down across generations, and are "ancient hierloom beads." (Even if this is not expressed—it is implied.) C) Versions of these beads were made at Idar-Oberstein (as expressed above). I think I can sometimes recognize the Idar beads, because I have a long-standing familiarity with their output. However, I would not say I can do this 100% of the time. The thing is—I know it is a factor to be considered. D) In recent years Chinese beadmakers have made reproductions or imitations of these beads. Some of these, like the prototypes, are or may be structurally-banded agate, that has been color-enhanced to become black, and have a white band around the equator. But more of these beads are imitations. They look similar, and are likewise carbonized agate—but they have an artificial white line around the equator that is applied via chemical decoration. (The process used for zi beads, and many other beads.) In real life, these beads are fairly easy to spot, because they look mass-produced. (They match well.) It is more difficult to be certain when they are viewed singly, and from photos.

5) When a certain bead attains a level of popularity (in this case, mostly based upon the fake name), and when huge quantities are suddenly available, the price normally goes down. Yet, in the marketplace, suddenly, sellers have full strands and a huge inventory. They are not explaining how this is possible, and they are not lowering the prices. Apparently the attraction of the fake name is working very well. And no one is questioning how all of the above has come to pass. Except me.

6) Once the name "Sulemani" became known and created a stir, sellers began calling ANY banded agate bead a "Sulemani bead." So the name has become a seriously abused made-up name.

7) We can see that the extension of names for beads as applied to other beads can be an issue and a problem. (This can be endemic in many parts of bead collecting.) In a similar way, in the Tibetan sphere, although bhaibasyaguru (these same beads) have a presence, and some Tibetans respect and use them, it is a truism that zi beads are not spheroidal as bhai beads are. But, be this as it may, beginning just a couple of years ago now, suddenly, bhai beads are being fronted as "Tibetan zi"—rather than being an adjunct to the popularity of zi.

This sums up my present thoughts.

JDA.

The following is an adjunct to my previous post regarding "Sulemani" banded agate beads.

Beginning in late January of this year (2023), I met with my friend David Ebbinghouse in Delhi, India--and we began a two-week trip through Eastern and Central India, with the goal of meeting rural people who were engaged in collecting old beads. These are reputed to come from the ground, and often from what are considered to be ancient manufacturing sites. Our entre was facilitated by my online friend, Sanatan (whom I have cyberly known since the time he participated here at BCN Forum). We were very grateful for his suggestion that this excursion be made, and that he helped us every day, in arranging travel, meetings, and preparing our introduction.

We made it abundantly clear that we were there to document and study these beads, and not to buy them. With this proviso, a number of gentlemen consented to show us their collections, to photograph the beads, and in some instances to show us the actual places that were being exploited.

I returned with over 2,700 photos and copious notes of our sojourn, and hope to synthesize this into a report that David and I will compose. We have a lot of work ahead of us.

The point of the present message is to amplify what I learned about "Sulemani" beads.

In interviewing rural Indian people, who have one-line and banded agate beads, I was informed that "Sulemani" is, in fact, their traditional name for these products.

Consequently, I have come to understand that this bit of "it is said" mythology is not uncommon in parts of India. Nevertheless, this does not mean that the name has any real historical meaning--which is what is implied by many or most of the people who offer these beads for sale. These sellers are mostly not Indian, though the beads are or may be coming from India. It is through the selling of these beads, with that name, that the beads have become unusually popular and pricy.

So, in most respects, I still think "Sulemani" is essentially a device for making a certain class of beads seem "important"--and that this factor supports increasingly high pricing structures. It is based on rural beliefs, and is not based upon anything like an historical circumstance. What I have learned is that there is a basis for using this name--and though it was not devised or "made-up from nowhere" as a selling device, it remains little more than that.