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Posted by: will Post Reply
03/05/2010, 14:30:09

I was thinking about what Bob said about bird deities, and so I thought I'd post a few bird beads and see if anyone wanted to add to the birdline.

First of all, four little shell beads, early third millennium BC, from (I think) northern Mesopotamia, or thereabouts.

And second, a seal with an ibis or some such bird on one side and a roughly carved sunburst on the other, Bactria, late third or early second millennium BC.

Cheers,

Will

WAsia150-3.jpg (57.2 KB)  Bactria190.jpg (67.5 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/05/2010, 14:36:47

From Zhou dynasty China (Warring States period), a bronze duck-billed belt hook, and a bronze pendant (or perhaps a harness appliqué) from the Ordos culture.

W.

Zhoubelthook029.jpg (31.4 KB)  Ordospendant76.jpg (45.4 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/05/2010, 14:46:15

Also from the Zhou dynasty, a jade crested parakeet, from southern China, 7.5 centimeters long. It could be a pendant but is more probably a finial.

And from the Samon Valley or earlyish Pyu cultures in Burma (200BCE-400CE), a carnelian bead that I think may be one of the malkohas (rainforest cookoos) - 6 cm long.

W.

Zhoujade104.jpg (20.6 KB)  Samon129.jpg (18.6 KB)  


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My cockatiels would love the jade one!
Re: Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
03/06/2010, 09:33:25

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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Re: More Birds -- Shang dynasty
Re: Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/08/2010, 00:37:23

Hello Will,

Here are a number of Shang dynasty bird pendants that I photographed at the Metropolitan Museum in New York -- first three. I photographed the remaining Shang birds at the Sackler gallery in Washington D.C. We know that the Shang cultivated rice (and domesticated the water buffalo) and agricultural wetlands attract water birds so it is not surprising that some of these beautifully "carved" pendants represent water birds. On the other hand, much of the aesthetic interest of these birds rests in their imaginative stylization. The final two birds are from the Western Zhou.

Of all the dynastic jades, I have come to prefer those from the Shang and Western Zhou periods. (Although I would certainly accept any Warring States, or for that matter many later examples if they were offered to me.)

Terry

3_Shang_birds_-_Met.jpg (37.8 KB)  Shang_bird_1.JPG (144.7 KB)  


Modified by cicada at Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 00:42:17

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Re: More Birds More Shang
Re: Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/08/2010, 00:44:47

Shang_bird_2.JPG (153.8 KB)  Shang_bird_3_-_traces_of_cinnabar.JPG (141.1 KB)  


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Re: More Birds - More Shang
Re: Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/08/2010, 00:47:06

On preceding bird and the first one here we see traces of cinnabar.

Shang_bird_4_-_cinnabar.JPG (151.9 KB)  Shang_bird_5.JPG (156.1 KB)  


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Re: More Birds - More Shang
Re: Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/08/2010, 00:48:57

Shang_bird_6.JPG (151.4 KB)  very_small_Shang_birds_-_1_turq..JPG (77.9 KB)  


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Re: More Birds - Western Zhou
Re: Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/08/2010, 00:50:50

bird_1_W._Zhou.JPG (138.1 KB)  bird_2_W._Zhou.JPG (156.9 KB)  


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Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix
Re: Re: More Birds - Western Zhou -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Sallie Post Reply
03/09/2010, 04:49:21

Hello cicada

Here is a jade phoenix from the tomb of Fu Hao in Anyang that you might like to look at.

One thing I cannot be sure about is whether this is an original or a copy even though it is displayed in the tomb exhibition. I have read somewhere that excavated artifacts in China are often taken to Beijing or Shanghai museums while replicas are kept at the place of excavation.
How true this is I am not sure.

Sallie

Copy_of_IMG_1493.JPG (113.1 KB)  


Modified by Sallie at Tue, Mar 09, 2010, 04:50:46

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Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix
Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix -- Sallie Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/09/2010, 19:57:27

Hi Sallie,

As soon as I saw your picture, the carving looked all wrong to me; it's so similar in "feel" and patina to many of the obvious fakes that one sees everywhere. Here (the first pic) is what Fu Hao's phoenix actually looked like in an archaeological publication in the 1980s shortly after it was dug up. The second pair of images taken later show the details a little more clearly. The replica in the Anyang museum isn't even very much of a replica; just look at how different the bird's crest is. This kind of thing happens a lot - not only in China, but more frequently there than most other countries - and it shows a total contempt for the thousands of ordinary people who line in up all sincerity to see a piece of their history.

You were right to be doubtful!

All the best,

Will

fuhaophoenix.jpg (21.0 KB)  fuhaophoenix2.jpg (30.4 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix
Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix -- Sallie Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/10/2010, 00:02:46

Hello Sallie,

Thanks for the photo. I agree with Will about this one although it is somewhat shocking that this piece which is probably the most photographed jade from Fu Hao's tomb should be copied so inexpertly and that the substitution would go unnoticed. The Fu Hao phoenix is actually considered to be a much earlier piece from the late neolithic Shijiahe culture which shows that the phoenix has been with us for a long time. Did this museum show other jades purportedly from the Fu Hao tomb? Some of these jades are very striking and are among the most copied of all ancient jades -- the coiled dragon for example.

In later and modern times the phoenix motif became standardized and like many later Chinese forms lost all the vitality and inventiveness of the early pieces. Even in the Eastern Zhou and Han, many of the pieces and many with phoenixes are already too uniform and predictable. After seeing many of these examples, I was surprised and excited to see some late Eastern Zhou/Early Han phoenixes excavated in 2004. These jades were published by the Cultural Relics Press as "One of the top ten archaeological discoveries of China in 2004"

Terry

DSC05969.JPG (114.6 KB)  DSC05974.JPG (118.5 KB)  


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More Zhou/Han beautiful phoenixes
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/10/2010, 00:07:25

DSC05975.JPG ( bytes)  DSC05976.JPG (63.6 KB)  


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The Zhou/Han-influenced "modern era" phoenix in pendants and beads
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/10/2010, 00:18:42

The motif has been standardized and simplified. Although sometimes "pretty," all creative vitality has been lost.

DSC02604.JPG (71.5 KB)  DSC02239.JPG (48.7 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Sallie Post Reply
03/10/2010, 05:10:41

Hello Terry & Will

Thanks for confirming my doubts about the phoenix. Although I had my suspicions I am also disappointed as I had travelled 100s of km to Anyang to visit the Yinxu Ruins. Yin is the last capital of Shang Dynasty and Yinxu the excavated ruins. The phoenix I show is actually on display in the tomb of Fu Hao. Just hope the tomb is not a hoax too ! I did not see any sign in the display case to say that items on display are replicas but must add that my understanding of Chinese is not that good.

I will post pictures of the whole display which include jade dove, deer, tiger, hairpin, beads, etc.

Sallie

Copy_(2)_of_IMG_1493.jpg (159.1 KB)  Copy_of_IMG_1492.jpg (146.2 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix -- Sallie Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Sallie Post Reply
03/10/2010, 05:18:38

Two more of the tomb display

Copy_of_IMG_1495.jpg (153.1 KB)  Copy_of_IMG_1490.jpg (160.6 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix -- Sallie Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/10/2010, 21:52:33

Hello Sallie,

Thank you for showing these. You have probably saved several people from making the trip - including me if and when I get to China. I'm wondering if there was something written saying that these jades are "standing in" for the famous Fu Hao finds. Other than the very general subject and design, it does not seem that these jades were made to deceive because they are so very different from the originals. If they had meant to deceive the public, wouldn't they have used the appropriate color jade and have copied the details more faithfully? I have seen better reproductions of these famous jades. (The deer looks a bit more convincing.) It is a mystery.

A major problem with the study of jade is that facts are scarce (at least English publication facts) and because there is no definitive scientific test for the age of stone, misinformation, disinformation and rumors abound. I have heard rumors that even some jades in the Palace Museum in Beijing and other distinguished Chinese museums are finely made specific reproductions placed there by a) corrupt officials/ individuals who over the years have absconded with the originals, or b) by the government during the Cultural Revolution with the originals being sold off to raise money. In cases such as these, the reproductions would have to be very good ones, much better than those you have shown. I would guess that these rumors are most likely apocryphal. Perhaps Will knows more about this?

I have been thinking about some of the issues that have been raised in this jade section of the bird thread and I may start a new thread to discuss one or two of them which do not directly pertain to birds.

Terry



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fu Hao's Jade Phoenix -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Sallie Post Reply
03/11/2010, 06:38:36

Hello Terry

Unfortunately, my knowledge of Chinese is very basic and it may be probable that I may have missed the message that displayed items are not originals. But I dont remember seeing any sign in English to that effect.

I can only blame myself for not finding out more before going and not just assume that excavated items must be kept in their excavated locations. The Chinese have their own rules and way of curating their museums.

Altho Yinxu Ruins is an important and sprawling site and a Unesco World Heritage site, on the day I visited we were the 2 solitary visitors ! It looked deserted and there were no museum guides on hand to ask questions. Just a country guard or 2 when you can find them. Its a very rural kind of place.

Perhaps it is this very lack of visitors that makes it not viable to keep these precious items in remote locations so they rather keep them in their more famous museums like Beijing or SHanghai so that more people can appreciate them. This is just my personal conjecture.

Look forward to your new thread and your jade collecting experience.

Sallie



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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/05/2010, 14:53:29

And finally for now, an early Islamic beautifully folded glass bird. I got it from Steve (Claudian) on the trades page here, and he got it from Jan. You don't get better pedigrees than that!

Does anyone have an idea about what kind of bird it is? The colours are magpie-like but the tail is too short for that.

Thanks for looking and please add your own.

Cheers,

Will

Islamic290.jpg (59.0 KB)  


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Pigeon??
Re: Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
03/06/2010, 09:35:40

It looks pigeon-ish to me, and the provenance would fit. Years ago we got a fancy pigeon from a young woman who bought & imported hers from Egypt, at a cost of hundreds of dollars. There's a history there of fine pigeon-breeding. He WAS a lovely bird in all respects.

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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Re: Pigeons, otters, cockatiels
Re: Pigeon?? -- Luann Udell Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/06/2010, 15:03:44

Thanks, Luann. I think you're right; it's definitely pigeon-ish. I'm always so impressed when beadmakers manage to catch the "feel" of an animal - much like the smiling otter you showed us a little while back.

Then, as I was thinking about your cockatiels, I remembered this picture. Perhaps a match could be arranged?

Cheers,

Will

legotiels.jpg (15.7 KB)  


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Oh, those are wonderful!
Re: Re: Pigeons, otters, cockatiels -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
03/07/2010, 17:38:59

Let's set up a date for Steve! :^D He lost his mate last month :^( & is letting me know he misses her.

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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Birds for Will...
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
03/05/2010, 15:39:37

Sumba Island (Indonesia), Ancestoral type pendant, though some say they are earrings. Often found in brass, but also in gold. This one is in high karat gold. Note larger size by comparison to hand.

Jan Skipper
mosquitobay

Sumba-Is.-ancestor-2.jpg (68.5 KB)  Sumba-Is.-ancestor-4.jpg (53.8 KB)  


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Re: More Birds for Will....
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
03/05/2010, 15:53:54

Nepalese gold earrings, also of large size:

(There is actually a pair, but I can only find a picture of one).

tribal-earring.jpg (53.5 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/06/2010, 00:59:38

Hi Will & Jan
Very nice birds. Will your first birds are Sumerian from the Early Bronze Age 3300-2000 BC,representing Anzu, the lion-heded eagle, also known as Imdugud from the Mesopotamian mythology. Mid-3rd millennium BC.

4_Early_Bronze_Age_3300-2000_BC_Sumerian_Lapis_Lazuli_bird_pendants,_representing_Anzu,_the_lion-heded_eagle,_also_known_as_Imdugud_from_the_Mesopotamian_mythology._Mid-3rd_millennium_BC_2.jpg (105.2 KB)  4_Early_Bronze_Age_3300-2000_BC_Sumerian_Lapis_Lazuli_bird_pendants,_representing_Anzu,_the_lion-heded_eagle,_also_known_as_Imdugud_from_the_Mesopotamian_mythology._Mid-3rd_millennium_BC_1.jpg (114.8 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/06/2010, 01:04:34

same representing Anzu, the lion-heded eagle.

1_4_Early_Bronze_Age_3300-2000_BC_Sumerian_Lapis_Lazuli_bird_pendants,_representing_Anzu,_the_lion-heded_eagle,_also_known_as_Imdugud_from_the_Mesopotamian_mythology._Mid-3rd_millennium_BC_2.jpg (104.1 KB)  1_4_Early_Bronze_Age_3300-2000_BC_Sumerian_Lapis_Lazuli_bird_pendants,_representing_Anzu,_the_lion-heded_eagle,_also_known_as_Imdugud_from_the_Mesopotamian_mythology._Mid-3rd_millennium_BC_1.jpg (92.6 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/06/2010, 01:07:27

same representing Anzu, the lion-heded eagle.

4_Early_Bronze_Age_3300-2000_BC_Sumerian_Lapis_Lazuli_bird_pendants,_representing_Anzu,_the_lion-heded_eagle,_also_known_as_Imdugud_from_the_Mesopotamian_mythology._Mid-3rd_millennium_BC.5.jpg (108.7 KB)  4_Early_Bronze_Age_3300-2000_BC_Sumerian_Lapis_Lazuli_bird_pendants,_representing_Anzu,_the_lion-heded_eagle,_also_known_as_Imdugud_from_the_Mesopotamian_mythology._Mid-3rd_millennium_BC.3.jpg (108.5 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/06/2010, 01:10:46

same representing Anzu, the lion-heded eagle.

4_Early_Bronze_Age_3300-2000_BC._Sumerian_.Agate_bird_pendants,_representing_Anzu,_the_lion-heded_eagle,_also_known_as_Imdugud_from_the_Mesopotamian_mythology.mid-3rd_millennium_BC_._6.jpg (101.6 KB)  4_Early_BronzeAge_3300-2000_BC_Age_Sumerian_.Agate_bird_pendants,_representing_Anzu,_the_lion-heded_eagle,_also_known_as_Imdugud_from_the_Mesopotamian_mythology.mid-3rd_millennium_BC_5.jpg (117.6 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/06/2010, 01:18:06

And some glass Trail decorated Bird beads. Europ probably Italy. 8th-7th BC. UP 16.55mm-13.50mm-7.30mm . Down 16.40-11.20-6.70mm.

8_iron_age_II_1000_-_586_BC.Trail_decorated_Bird_beads._Europ_probably_Italy._8th-7th_BC._UP_16.55mm-13.50mm-7.30mm_._Down_16.40-11.20-6.70mm.jpg (107.2 KB)  8_iron_age_II_1000_-_586_BC.Trail_decorated_Bird_beads._Europ_probably_Italy._8th-7th_BC._UP_16.55mm-13.50mm-7.30mm_._Down_16.40-11.20-6.70mm_A.jpg (102.4 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/06/2010, 01:23:39

Roman-Byzantine period.300-500 AD.Mother of pearl bird pendents..Up left -25.50mm-16.30mm - 2.75mm.

13_Byzantine_period_330-640_AD_Late_Roman-Byzantine_period.300-500_AD.Mother_of_pearl_bird_pendents..Up_left_-25.50mm-16.30mm_-_2.75mm..jpg (98.7 KB)  13_Byzantine_period_330-640_AD_Late_Roman-Byzantine_period.300-500_AD.Mother_of_pearl_bird_pendents..Up_left_-25.50mm-16.30mm_-_2.75mm._A.jpg (98.6 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/06/2010, 01:29:53

Sasanid (shiraz) Flat mosaic bird beads. 400-600 AD.

16_Sasanid_(shiraz)_Flat_mosaic_bird_beads._400-600_AD.jpg (101.6 KB)  


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Re: More Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/06/2010, 01:32:38

Neolitic 8300-4500 BC. bird Pendents.

1_Neolitic_8300-4500_BC.Pendents..jpg (98.6 KB)  


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New bird that will be old some day
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lopacki Post Reply
03/06/2010, 09:08:20

A friend carved this for me some years ago, his name Craig Bacharach, he hails from Jerome, Az. and is and has been recognized as one of the best for his animal beads for over thirty years. This bird is carved from Fire Agate, the eyes are Opal and they are set in high carat gold.

All my best ....... Danny

1_o1.jpg (162.3 KB)  1_o2.jpg (161.0 KB)  


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Re: Mamuli, Anzu, Owls
Re: New bird that will be old some day -- lopacki Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/06/2010, 15:33:19

Thanks, Jan, Yankee and Danny,

That mamuli, Jan, is very nice indeed. The gold ones are hand to find, aren't they? Is there any way of dating them?

And, Yankee, you have so many wonderful birds. Can you tell me more about the C7BCE glass ones "from Europe?" They look a bit like pigeons, too. Where in Europe? I think the Neolithic ones are my favourites; they're so perfectly simple in their lines.

I'm sure you're right about my little shell beads and all your lapis birds being amulets of Anzu/Zu, the Sumerian lion-headed eagle. And yet they don't have any threat about them, no vengeful lion head at all, unlike this larger carving of him (it's in the Louvre; photo is public domain).

And the agate owl, Danny, is very owlish and self-contained - lovely carving. Strange that there seem to be so relatively few owl beads, when the form of owls is so innately sculptural.

Best,

Will

Zu.jpg (85.6 KB)  


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Re: Re: Mamuli, Anzu, Owls
Re: Re: Mamuli, Anzu, Owls -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/07/2010, 08:15:08

Hi Will
The birds (pigeons)supposed to be from south Italy.

And a double headed hematite owl from TAL Birak.located in the Nahr al-Khabur basin in Al-Hasakah Syria. inhabited from 3200 to 2200 BC .
prototype of the Greek owl.

3_Double_Eye_idol_hematite_bead._from_TAL_Birak.located_in_the_Nahr_al-Khabur_basin_in_Al-Hasakah_.Syria._inhabited_from_3200_to_2200_BC.14.15mm-23.00mm..jpg (121.9 KB)  3_Double_Eye_idol_hematite_bead._from_TAL_Birak.located_in_the_Nahr_al-Khabur_basin_in_Al-Hasakah_.Syria._inhabited_from_3200_to_2200_BC.14.15mm-23.00mm._A.jpg (95.8 KB)  


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Chinese ornate owl bead
Re: New bird that will be old some day -- lopacki Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/07/2010, 00:12:14

More Chinese owls tomorrow

owl.JPG (83.3 KB)  _owl_back.JPG (88.1 KB)  


Modified by cicada at Sun, Mar 07, 2010, 00:12:55

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Bird ID
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/07/2010, 00:18:53

Small -- approximately 3.3 x 5 cm -- plaque-like bird with hole partially drilled into top of head. Any ideas about this one?

Hope to bring more birds tomorrow.

Terry

1_bird.jpg (41.9 KB)  


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Re: Bird ID
Re: Bird ID -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/14/2010, 08:51:06

its an inley piece for a wood or ivory box probably from the late bronze age 1550-1200 bc to iron age I 1200-1000 bc
is it possible to see the other side ?
and Jan you are to kind thank you.
yankee



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Re: Re: Bird ID
Re: Re: Bird ID -- ancient beads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/14/2010, 18:51:06

Hello Yankee,

Thank you very much! Place of origin - approximately- in Asia on today's map? The fact that there is no design on the back supports the idea of
this being a piece for inlay. Also perhaps the partial hole in the head-
see photo- as a hole for a wooden insert to join pieces of inlay?

While I'm at it, how would you attribute the bird in the next post?
It is 23mm high and is a black stone.

Best,
Terry

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Re: Re: Re: Bird ID
Re: Re: Re: Bird ID -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
03/16/2010, 13:54:23

Hello Terry
The place of origin in todays map is Iraq .
I was looking for the partial hole & no design on the back. this is usually the sign for the inlay craftsmanship to strengthen all the parts together.
for the 2nd post it is a Middle Bronze Age 2000-1600 bc Sumerian amulet.
all the best
yankee



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Thank you, Yankee!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bird ID -- ancient beads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/16/2010, 14:50:18



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Re: Re: Bird ID -- second bird
Re: Re: Bird ID -- ancient beads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/14/2010, 18:57:28

second_bird.JPG (38.4 KB)  second_bird_back.JPG (33.6 KB)  


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Re: More Birds from South America
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Hendrik Post Reply
03/07/2010, 02:32:46

Thank you for these very nice old birds.

Like I'm always looking out for beads I bought these necklaces two years ago from an antique dealer and they look like genuine south american to me. I have no idea about age for some of the parts. The bird heads are made of clay and measure 23 by 13mm and are 10mm thick, the stone bird 24 by 19mm and is 8mm thick.

All feedback is welcome,
Hendrik

SABIRDcopy1a.jpg (123.2 KB)  SABIRD3copya.jpg (142.8 KB)  


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First bead I ever posted
Re: Re: More Birds from South America -- Hendrik Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
03/07/2010, 03:12:23

This is the bead I brought home from a silk road trip. When I wanted to know more about, searched online, I found this site.
I was quickly told that it was a new replica, but I still wanted to show it, because it is my starting point as a bead collector.

2_vogel1.jpg (25.7 KB)  


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Thx Will And Yankee and others for nice beads and information.
Re: First bead I ever posted -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
03/07/2010, 08:06:47



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First bead I ever posted- nice story!
Re: First bead I ever posted -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
03/16/2010, 08:53:49

I like this story. I have a bead like that... found in the bottom of a box of broken jewelry, 5 cents a piece, at an old Goodwill store. It is a gold oval wedding cake bead, such an exciting find that I went back to the box of broken jewelry repeatedly looking for more, and of course, buying nice beads, any beads, whenever I found them. This was my 'first' bead, if you will.



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Re: More Birds: Pre-Columbian
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/07/2010, 14:51:11

Three small carnelian birds, larger (65mm x 20 mm) jasper toucan: Colombia Tairona culture 1000-1400 A.D.

Spindle whorls: Ecuador Manteño culture 500-1500 A.D.

Tairona_birds_Colombia_1000_-_1400_A.D.JPG (147.8 KB)  


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Spindle whorls with birds
Re: Re: More Birds: Pre-Columbian -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/07/2010, 15:00:44

Manteño_culture_Ecuador_500_-_1500_A.D.JPG ( bytes)  


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Re: Spindle whorls with birds--Manteno culture..
Re: Spindle whorls with birds -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
03/10/2010, 13:15:30

A couple more of similar nature (#1463 & 1464):

1463.jpg (18.8 KB)  1464.jpg (21.9 KB)  


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Re: Re: Spindle whorls with birds--Manteno culture..
Re: Re: Spindle whorls with birds--Manteno culture.. -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/10/2010, 22:10:16

Hi Jan,

Most of my Manteno whorls came from you so these birds probably did as
well. Did you see my bird ID above? This came from Rita Okrent's collection, but was sold without an attribution other than ancient. Do
you have any ideas about it? You can/should be frank. Anyone else?

Terry



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Re: Re: Re: Spindle whorls with birds--Manteno culture..
Re: Re: Re: Spindle whorls with birds--Manteno culture.. -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
03/12/2010, 04:33:36

Hi Cicada,

I presume it to be Western Asia in origen, beyond that I would be guessing. Perhaps Yankee, who is most talented with identification of ancient materials would care to comment.



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Thanks Jan, YANKEE up to bat
Re: Re: Re: Re: Spindle whorls with birds--Manteno culture.. -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/12/2010, 15:32:29

Hello Yankee,

If you see this, could you please comment on the piece under Bird ID earlier in the thread?

Thanks,

Terry



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Ancient North American double headed bird pendant
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/07/2010, 15:03:35

North_American_Indian_2-headed_bird_shell_pendant.JPG (165.7 KB)  


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Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant
Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: amerind_art Post Reply
03/12/2010, 13:13:26

This piece used to belong to me. Were you the one who purchased it from me off eBay? It came from the Columbia River, Washington / Oregon. My best, Stephen Parfitt @ Ancient Circles in Springfield, Illinois.



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Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant
Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- amerind_art Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/12/2010, 15:21:08

Yes Stephen, I bought it from you; I love it and would not let it go. I
thought I remembered Northwest Coast for this piece, but I couldn't find the paperwork. Am I correct in remembering "ancient" rather than 19th century?

I also bought the abalone Tlingit nose ring from you and directed you to Edward Curtis's 1914 film footage on Youtube. Have you seen it recently? It does not seem to be available there any longer. I see that there is one site which promises a clip from the film: http://www.fluryco.com/ My computer is rather out of date so I'm not sure I can view it from there, but for those who can, I heartily recommend it. Until recently it has only been available at obscure screenings.

Terry



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Edward Curtis Meets the Kwakwaka' wakw
Re: Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/12/2010, 17:35:24

At http://www.curtisfilm.rutgers.edu/index.php, one can see more about
this film including more bird headdresses in their third clip.

The bird costumes in the war canoe clip (previous post) are particularly compelling and the whole should be seen in as large a format as possible.

Terry



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A kind reader has pointed out that the final comma must be removed for the link to work.
Re: Edward Curtis Meets the Kwakwaka' wakw -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/16/2010, 10:51:07



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Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant
Re: Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: many_roads1 Post Reply
03/15/2010, 06:45:55

I hope you will not think it indiscrete of me to urge caution when dealing with these so-called "ancient" bone amulets as I know there are a lot of fakes around, as with so much Native American material. I would imagine these carved bone items are easy to reproduce. You might be interested to know there is a very useful book available on the subject of these items and how to detect fakes. (I tried looking for the details but can't find them at the moment. A google search will probably yield the requisite information).



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Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant
Re: Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: many_roads1 Post Reply
03/15/2010, 06:56:02

Here is the link for the publication I mentioned, entitled "Fake Bone Fetishes and Shamans [sic] Charms and How to Recognize Them"....

http://snipurl.com/unelg Item number: 260563426197

"You are bidding on a fourteen-page guide to fake fetishes or shamans charms. The items pictured are all Indonesian carvings; commonly sold as Alaskan, Eskimo, cow, moose, elk, or buffalo bone carvings.

includes:

high quality photos of many fake Indonesian carvings
a list of bead-dealers who import them
eBay sources for bulk purchase in lots of 20-100

It is easy to tell whether the bone fetishes one sees are fakes; nearly all the figural bone or ivory fetishes commonly seen in live auctions, in antique shops and on eBay are fakes. These are fantasy items, originally produced for the bead trade; there are no genuine native items at all that look anything like these. Any item that looks like those pictured is a modern Indonesian import, not old or new Eskimo or Alaskan. All the items pictured can be found in the catalogs of the companies who import beading supplies.

This small brochure explains how to recognize these common fakes by their incongruous style, and too-perfect condition; the incised lines which are obviously made with modern motorized tools. More importantly, items which appear in hundreds of copies cannot possibly be genuine Native American, Indian, Inuit, or Eskimo artifacts. If the same item appears in multiple copies, it is a forgery, even if someone has written a date or location on it; even if it is said to be 100 years old and from Lower Fort Garry.

The carving of these items is now a cottage industry in Indonesia, with an annual production estimated in the tens of thousands of items. In 2005, the US Fish and Wildlife Service broke up an import/export crime ring; the crooks had been illegally obtaining marine ivory in the US, shipping it to Indonesia to be carved, and then importing it back into the US for sale. The confiscated inventory also included 10,000 otherwise-legal carvings made of Indonesian bone. The 10,000 pendants, whales, lances, otters, and so on, were auctioned off in September 2005. It is probably not a coincidence that large numbers of small carvings began to appear on eBay at about that time, sold by a whole rainbow of sellers.

Those 10,000 items were probably not a stockpile of several years work; but likely represented just a few months production. The annual output is huge compared to the few real Native items available through excavation or purchase from old collections.

These are the items one finds advertised as old Native or Eskimo artifacts; "1830's healing bone;" or "scrimshaw prayer bone."
There is no known use or historical precedent for them; they were developed by the Indonesian carving industry to sell to gullible Americans.

Needless to say, collections of old Eskimo items cannot possibly contain exact duplicates of common, modern Indonesian forgeries; and of course the supposed "native" items repeat the stylistic incongruities of the modern fakes. Nor do contemporary native carvers take their patterns from the Indonesians.

There are sellers who make a habit of selling these carvings in deceptive ways. The fakes may have inscriptions dated from 1894 to 1925; they may be "collected" from widely separated places, even though identical in design. This would clearly be impossible if the items were genuine. They include all the favorite imports: the whales, fish, bears, totems, gaming pieces. It is hard to imagine that these sellers harbor any delusion that these items are genuine. They themselves have sold dozens of exact duplicates; and even a neophyte knows that real items do not appear in duplicates. Some sellers spin wonderful stories about how the items have been authenticated by a museum, or came from a dealer's stock of 100-year old carvings. They do not explain why the items look just like those in the import catalogs, or why they are all identical, undamaged, and show modern tool-marks.



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many_roads1 Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant
Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- many_roads1 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: amerind_art Post Reply
03/16/2010, 08:33:57

I have that booklet, and while it is informative, it is all very basic information that is more common sense than truly educational. These bone carvings, like the types posted below, that are the ones you typically see for sale, are VERY obviously modern bone carvings / fakes & show no true cultural accuracy, proper manufacture, age, wear, material, provenance, patina, etc. They are often small mask pendants, whale tails, hook shapes, etc. VERY few are actually made to deceive, but some after-market sellers are unscrupulous. I was seeing these types of pendants sold as Eskimo a lot in the last few years but haven't seen many lately. I actually recognized the text from your post about info on the book RE: LOWER FORT GARRY because it comes from a series of auctions from a trash seller called candlecoantiques2, who runs many similar scams as the seller pcfcollectables, that I complained about back in January. Low dollar African beads and pendants being sold as Native American items with HIGHLY misleading names, histories, etc... and receiving lots of bids! Frustrating, infuriating. In short, just don't buy junk, and if you don't know about what you're buying then you shouldn't bid, or you should get a second opinion. Easy enough... there are plenty of knowledgable people in this forum.

many_roads1, I know your post was just a general word of caution to board members, and not trying to single me out, but just for the record... The double bird effigy that this post started with is completely authentic and dates to the 1800s or earlier. It came from ‘The Falls’ on the Oregon / Washington border - likely Celilo Falls, and it came out of the Col. Fitzhugh collection of Colorado Springs. There are only two others of these that I know of, one is shown on page 78 of ‘Indian Relics of the Pacific Northwest’ by Seaman and came from ‘The Bead Patch’ near The Dalles, and I am told there is one other is in a private collection in Washington, but I have never seen it. I still have the very detailed pictures on my other computer that show the degraded surface, patina, etc. I'll try to post them in the next couple days.

My best, Stephen Parfitt @ Ancient Circles in Springfield, Illinois.

a1a1a1.jpg (26.3 KB)  a2a2a2.jpg (92.4 KB)  


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Re: many_roads1 Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant
Re: many_roads1 Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- amerind_art Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: many_roads1 Post Reply
03/16/2010, 11:42:49

Thanks, Stephen. It would be good to see the pictures you mention.

1_bone.jpg (74.8 KB)  


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Re: Re: many_roads1 More photos
Re: Re: many_roads1 Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- many_roads1 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/16/2010, 14:38:22

Sorry for the poor quality of the original photo. These additional photos are taken with a telephoto not macro so they are still wanting. Nevertheless, they are better than the first one.

Terry

DSC06008.JPG (31.8 KB)  DSC06010.JPG (34.8 KB)  


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Re: Re: many_roads1 More photos back and side
Re: Re: many_roads1 Re: Re: Ancient North American double headed bird pendant -- many_roads1 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/16/2010, 14:40:25

DSC06011.JPG (32.2 KB)  DSC06014.JPG (151.0 KB)  


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Re: me too!
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
03/08/2010, 02:42:39

1)One parrot and one owl, molded glass.Czech.

2)One parrot -- or is it a vulture? -- the work of a Tircul goldsmith. Pyu(Burma).

The three of them gifts from queenly friends.

birds.jpg (56.6 KB)  pyu_bird.jpg (37.2 KB)  


Modified by nishedha at Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 02:45:47

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That eternal question: Is it a bead?
Re: Re: me too! -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
03/08/2010, 02:59:32

A Japanese medal. Iron,bronze? Diameter 21 mm(7/8").
Again, a gift from a dear lady.

montse's_heron_medal.jpg (72.1 KB)  


Modified by nishedha at Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 03:00:51

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Re:A Japanese Ojime.
Re: That eternal question: Is it a bead? -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
03/08/2010, 03:17:06

A very romantic theme: a couple of cranes flying away from another marooned bird.
Bone? Copper rings protecting the holes.
17,3 mm (less than 6/8").

You guessed it: another gorgeous gift!

ojimeA.jpg (45.3 KB)  ojimeB.jpg (49.8 KB)  


Modified by nishedha at Mon, Mar 08, 2010, 03:25:41

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Japanese ojime with rooster
Re: Re:A Japanese Ojime. -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/08/2010, 09:30:11

rooster_ojime.JPG (140.1 KB)  


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MORE Birds - jewels of another order
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/08/2010, 14:15:44

I tried to refrain, but couldn't resist the impulse to show my latest bird photos from January. I took these at a local botanical garden.

DSC05231.JPG (74.0 KB)  January_2010.JPG (96.3 KB)  


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Ditto
Re: MORE Birds - jewels of another order -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/08/2010, 14:18:15

Jan._2010.JPG (89.8 KB)  DSC05222.JPG (105.9 KB)  


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Re: Ditto
Re: Ditto -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: red Post Reply
03/09/2010, 04:05:18

Berber Ring
Southern Morocco
Birds represent arrivals of new life

peacedovesring.jpg (70.4 KB)  


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birds in Moroccan jewellery ...Imagary
Re: Re: Ditto -- red Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: red Post Reply
03/09/2010, 04:09:31

The foot of the bird is a symbol seen in Berber Jewels, It represents new life. It is often seen within a Khrab hoop, this is a representation of new life emerging through the portal of life ( womb )

khrabsingle.jpg (45.3 KB)  footpendantset5.jpg (66.9 KB)  


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Re: My bird bead
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: vergret Post Reply
03/09/2010, 14:32:08

Mine is a very small kissing bird. I like it very much.
Greta

kissingbird1.jpg (92.1 KB)  


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What a really beautiful bead! Thank you, Greta.
Re: Re: My bird bead -- vergret Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/09/2010, 20:13:56



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Beautiful bead Greta, what is its size?
Re: Re: My bird bead -- vergret Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Hendrik Post Reply
03/10/2010, 02:06:44



Modified by Hendrik at Wed, Mar 10, 2010, 04:49:56

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size
Re: Beautiful bead Greta, what is its size? -- Hendrik Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: vergret Post Reply
03/10/2010, 12:56:01

Dag Hendrik,
10mm/7mm, 4,5mm thicness



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Re: More Birds: Sassanian This thread has me all a-flutter.
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/10/2010, 00:27:40

Sassanian spindle whorls with birds. These beads (different photos) were posted a while back, but they should be here with the other birds.

DSC05964.JPG ( bytes)  DSC05966.JPG (75.4 KB)  


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Oh, I never knew spindle whorls can be that N*iC*e!
Re: Re: More Birds: Sassanian This thread has me all a-flutter. -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
03/10/2010, 12:18:57



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Another possible Sassanian avian
Re: Re: More Birds: Sassanian This thread has me all a-flutter. -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Margot Post Reply
03/10/2010, 18:18:19

What a fantastic thread - thank you to everyone who has posted!
I think this might be a bird though not as light and elegant as your examples Cicada....

IMG_7595_-_Copy.JPG (37.5 KB)  


Modified by Margot at Wed, Mar 10, 2010, 18:19:08

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Sassanian whorl rooster?
Re: Re: More Birds: Sassanian This thread has me all a-flutter. -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Margot Post Reply
03/10/2010, 18:24:31

Or maybe a distant relation of the push-me-pull-you, the pull-you-pull-me rooster-horse?

IMG_7602_-_Copy.JPG (41.7 KB)  IMG_7603_-_Copy.JPG (45.8 KB)  


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Re: Sassanian whorl rooster?
Re: Sassanian whorl rooster? -- Margot Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
03/10/2010, 22:00:30

This is a great one! A mythological creature with beak and horns and . . .
some sort of a griffin?



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YAHOO! These are great.
Re: Re: More Birds: Sassanian This thread has me all a-flutter. -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
03/14/2010, 20:23:44



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Jimmy Durante bird...
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
03/10/2010, 13:11:46

Pre-Columbian gold winged nose-piece (#4764). Wings for the fashionable proboscis. Or a flying nose bird!

I cannot reach my notes at the moment, but it is from the general area of pre-Spanish contact gold working cultures in upper Columbia, about 7 inches across!

Also from the Tairona culture in the same general vicinity, is a bead or pendant (#3345) also in gold depicting what appears to be birds on each side, about 35 mm across.

Jan Skipper,
Mosquitobay

4764.jpg (51.7 KB)  3345.jpg (86.3 KB)  


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Arctic Circle birds...
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
03/10/2010, 13:22:01

Two examples of Yuppick culture birds (#2901 & 2903), made of ivory by-products, said to be game pieces, but they have holes for suspension, which makes them collectible in my book. They are about 25 to 30-some mm across. The Yuppick culture still resides on St. Lawrence Island, in the Bering Sea.

2901.jpg (10.8 KB)  2903.jpg (10.5 KB)  


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I think the one on the left actually resembles the Loch Ness monster...
Re: Arctic Circle birds... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
03/12/2010, 19:51:05

so maybe one wandered away from the St. Lawrence area in antiquity and was trapped in the Loch.

OK, it's been a looong week!



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Spindle Whorls
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Mel H Post Reply
03/13/2010, 21:57:20

I believe these are pre-Columbian from what I have read on this site and others. Any opinion as to origin? Guatamalan mayber? I love the little black one with the ducks and mountains, it is my favorite :)

Birds_1.jpg (22.0 KB)  


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Re: Spindle Whorls
Re: Spindle Whorls -- Mel H Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadbox Post Reply
03/14/2010, 20:52:59

These look like the spindle whorls I purchased when I was in Ecuador. They are from the Monteno culture. All of my spindle whorls have some kind of animal on them. They are neat beads!!
-Matt



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Dannohs Birds
Re: Re: Spindle Whorls -- beadbox Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
03/15/2010, 12:00:07

Heres some birds...I don't know anything about these...any help

Birds_#_1.jpg (85.1 KB)  Birds_#_2.jpg (84.6 KB)  


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Re: Rare and Ordinary Birds
Re: More Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/17/2010, 08:16:41

Hi everyone,

Thanks for a wonderful aviary.

I'm leaving early next week for a few months in Southeast Asia - my second home, perhaps my first. So I've been trying to put a slight semblance of order in my stuff here, including the huge number of images on my desktop. In doing so, I came across this picture from an exhibit I saw in a Japanese museum last year. The bead, on loan from Korea, is one of the rarest and most valuable in the world. It's National Treasure 634, a jatim made in East Java, which was found in a royal tomb of the Silla kingdom that was dated to around 500CE. James Lankton wrote an excellent paper about it for the IBB conference in Istanbul, in which he pointed out that there is only one other known example in the world - in the Bead Museum in Arizona (#908 on Lois Dubin's timeline).

The bead is important, mainly because it's so well made, but also because it's the closest thing we have to a dated jatim, and because these canes, unlike most jatims, are not based on West Asian models. Lankton makes a strong case for the four heads being depictions of Buddha, and he also suggests that the birds are hamsas, divine geese. Originally the hamsa was a part of Hindu iconography, the bearer of the god Brahma, but later on it was adopted into early Buddhist symbolism. I would add that the number four and the colour white are important symbolically too.

But as I was looking at the picture yesterday, I found myself thinking: "Well, yes, perhaps, but this is a very fluffy little bird compared to those big muscular geese that are usually called hamsa." So I started looking for other images, and this is what I found: the Bali duck, which was one of the earliest domesticated ducks in Indonesia. To my eyes it looks very similar in "feel" to the birds on the bead, right the way down to the tuft on the back of its head.

That doesn't mean that it's not a hamsa too. Artists depicting religious ideas are at their most effective when their symbols are rooted in their own lived experience. The women on the walls of Angkor, the saints on the pillars of Chartres, are real live human beings, not abstract entities. The symbolic has its roots in the material.

Cheers,

Will

NT634.jpg (74.7 KB)  bali_duck.jpg (60.8 KB)  


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Re: Re: Rare and Ordinary Birds
Re: Re: Rare and Ordinary Birds -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
03/18/2010, 02:49:13

Hi Will,

As always, your thorough and intelligent remarks are greatly appreciated. This picture reminded me of a bead that I sold about 7 or 8 years ago. I once had a fairly large collection of Indonesian ancient beads. But I still have the pictures of this bead. I called it a "rooster bead", although it was difficult to tell exactly what it was for sure as it was very muddled and not nearly so clear as the one you depicted.

Happy and safe travels, and please do keep in touch.

Jan Skipper
mosquitobay

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