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Big Dutch beads.
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Posted by: amerind_art Post Reply
08/19/2009, 07:05:46

This is a pic of some big clear & cobalt Dutch (?) beads that were in a fifty pound mixed lot of beads I just bought. I haven't gotten the lot yet but hope there are some other good finds. I'm fascinated by Dutch beads & the price for the 50 lbs was about what the Dutch beads alone should have cost alone, so the other 49 pounds are just gravy. Love a deal! My best, Stephen Parfitt @ Ancient Circels in Springfield, Illinois.

IMG_6274.jpg (85.7 KB)  


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These are GERMAN beads!
Re: Big Dutch beads. -- amerind_art Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/19/2009, 08:46:43

Hi Stephen,

If you look for past messages here, you'll find several posts that describe how 90% of the beads that are said to "Dutch" and "from the 17th C." (that's when the Dutch were most active), are actually 19th and 20th C., beads from Germany. Your beads are not very rare, and any suggestion that they warrant a high price is based on their misidentification as "Dutch."

Typical Dutch beads are distinctive (apart from those that closely copy Venetian beads of that time—drawn rosetta beads, usually finished a-speo). Your beads do not resemble actual Dutch beads, apart from being furnace-wound.

I could write out a long diatribe about wound Dutch beads, but I'd be repeating myself yet again, and some readers would be tired of reading it again. I'll see if i can find a link to past messages here.

Jamey



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A Link
Re: These are GERMAN beads! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/19/2009, 09:25:02

Still looking for a better one. JDA.


Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=57571&iZz=57571&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0

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dutch beads
Re: A Link -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Judy Post Reply
08/19/2009, 10:29:25

dutch_glass_beads_bcn.jpg (65.8 KB)  


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PROBABLY Dutch Beads!
Re: dutch beads -- Judy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/19/2009, 10:52:10

Dear Judy,

This is another can-of-worms, about which much has been written.

No one knows, for sure, who made these beads!

I believe it is highly likely that they were made in Holland, at the beginning of the 18th C., when the industry fell away from making more-elaborate drawn beads that copied Venetian prototypes.

However, when I was in Amsterdam, consulting with the archaeological authorities there (The office of the City Archaeologist, in 1992, and 2005), I was told, in no uncertain terms, that they were unsure of either an identification nor a specific time of manufacture. These beads are recovered in Holland, but not in a revealing context. Because they are furnace-wound beads, there are no factory sites and wasters to be found—and such should not be expected. (These sorts of industries differ greatly from factories that rely upon pre-formed elements, and lampwork beadmaking—that generally result in LOTS of waste products to recover archaeologically.)

The best evidence for their time and place of manufacture is that they are recovered in parts of the world where the Dutch had considerable trade interests, in the late 17th-early 18th Cs. These are such places as Eastern N. America, and Island SE Asia. So, even then, the evidence is merely suggestive.

Let's not mislead anyone with overly positive affirmations about what remains only suggestive.

Jamey



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Correction!
Re: PROBABLY Dutch Beads! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
06/23/2023, 02:45:32

It has come to pass that many 18th C. glass beads, traded by the Dutch (including pentagon beads and others) are German products. One can only say they are "Dutch trade beads," because they were often traded by the Dutch. But this is not their origin.

JDA.



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Another Link
Re: These are GERMAN beads! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/19/2009, 11:30:50

I still haven't found the most comprehensive message on this topic. However, here's a link that includes several discussions of beads in Holland.

JDA


Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=%2Fopenforum%2F&tK=holland&wT=1&yVz=yTz&aO=1&hIz=1000&hJz=50&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-wT-yVz-aO-hKz

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Here's another link,
Re: These are GERMAN beads! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: joyce Post Reply
08/19/2009, 15:38:12

But not exactly what I was looking for either! This one's searching Amsterdam back about 3 years...


Related link: search Amsterdam, back 1000 days

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"Dutch" Beads
Re: These are GERMAN beads! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/24/2009, 12:15:50

Here's a message I posted at Trade Bead Talk on September 22, 2004, on the topic of "Dutch" beads. I'll add the photos when I can get to my photo archive. Jamey

Dear Members,

I have just returned from Amsterdam, where I was studying Dutch beads at two locations. I now have some amazing new information about beads made in Holland and found in Holland, that I will be presenting in the coming weeks and months.

To begin, I have made a new Folder called DUTCH TRADE BEADS, and the first images in it are of a necklace in the Liese Collection (soon for The Bead Museum), composed of both wound and drawn Dutch beads. Mrs. Liese acquired this necklace some twenty years ago from Herman van der Made (a collector and author who did a booklet for G. B. Fenstermaker in the 1970s). Upon seeing it, I was reasonably convinced it has authenticate 17th or early 18th century Dutch beads—both wound and drawn. Now that I have seen a great quantity of archaeological material at Amsterdam, I am positive of this assertion.

Among bead collectors, there is considerable confusion about what beads may
be "Dutch" and even what that name means or implies. Because Holland was an important entrepot in the 17th century, many beads—including Venetian beads—passed through Amsterdam on their way to world-wide distribution. So, not everything found in Holland is "Dutch" in origin. But, the real problem is that MANY later wound (and drawn) glass beads are routinely misidentified as being "Dutch" when they are usually either Bohemian or German (or even Venetian), and date from the 19th or 20th centuries. (This is too late for real Dutch beads.)

Consequently, my recent goal has been to look very carefully at beads that have the best potential to be actual Dutch beads from the 17th and 18th centuries (during which beads were made in Holland, but not earlier nor later), and to show them for the benefit of collectors everywhere. The current necklace is a good start, and I will continue to add specimens to this Folder, once I get film back and digital images edited.

Have a great bead-collecting week.

Jamey



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A Necklace of Authentic Dutch Beads
Re: "Dutch" Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/24/2009, 15:03:46

Here are two shots of the necklace in the Liese Collection, showing larger wound beads (these being medium-blue, and ovoidal or spheroidal), and long plain drawn dark blue cylinders.

More to come.

JDA.

371_GL_dutch.jpg (55.9 KB)  373_GL_dutch.jpg (53.9 KB)  


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More Photos
Re: A Necklace of Authentic Dutch Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/24/2009, 15:06:03

These shots show the ovoid white beads, and the star bead slice, in close detail.

One more....

JDA.

372_GL_dutch.jpg (49.3 KB)  374_GL_dutch.jpg (45.7 KB)  


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The Whole Necklace
Re: A Necklace of Authentic Dutch Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/24/2009, 15:21:36

In examining the large wound Dutch beads—which I did in Holland at the office of the City Archaeologist and viewing the van der Sleen Collection at the Allard Pierson Museum—what I noticed about these beads is that they look very different from the later German beads that are frequently misidentified as "Dutch." For one thing, the German beads are smaller (so much so, I would not call them "big" beads as Stephen did). From an African context (which is from where we see the vast majority of these "Dogon Dutch beads"), the shape is oblate with flattened ends, and the glass is quite translucent dark blue. The accompanying beads are usually colorless, verging on transparent. In contrast, the Dutch beads are typically quite opaque blue. The white beads are not translucent/colorless, but are actually white, and are either feebly translucent (at best) or opaque. Some of these are or may be girasol glass (translucent opaline dichroic glass that is bluish in reflected light, and veers toward yellow or orangy in transmitted light).

Although there I have not seen any translucent dark blue beads from the Dutch production, of spheroidal or ovoidal shapes, I am aware that there were some wound beads with pentagonal (paddled) facets as well as other simple shapes, made from translucent blue glass.

The drawn beads seen here are very dark blue, and almost pass for black. There is no way of knowing if they date from the same time as the wound beads—and in fact are most likely earlier.

The star bead is just a slice from a cane—whereas the majority of Dutch rosetta beads were heat-rounded a-speo. But the cane itself is the same.

More, another time. Jamey

370_GL_dutch_gls.jpg (41.5 KB)  


Modified by Beadman at Mon, Aug 24, 2009, 18:50:33

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Re: "Dutch" Beads
Re: "Dutch" Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Heleen Post Reply
08/25/2009, 02:53:36

Hi Jamey, and others

Can you then help me identify these beads of mine. Most were sold to me as being 'Dutch Dogon' beads. I love them no matter what though, because of their size and colors. I especially love the baby-blue beads. Hereby I will upload some pictures

Thanks! Heleen

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Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads
Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads -- Heleen Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Heleen Post Reply
08/25/2009, 02:58:30

Some whites

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Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads
Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads -- Heleen Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Heleen Post Reply
08/25/2009, 03:01:27

And a picture of my baby blue's and milky whites (and some moon beads as well, in the lower left corner). In the second picture, the beads are backlit, my apologies for the bad quality of the picture!

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Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads
Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads -- Heleen Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Heleen Post Reply
08/25/2009, 03:04:02

And the darker beads! Also different shades of blue, and one is actually purple, when backlit.

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Re: Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads, Fantastic beads!!!
Re: Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads -- Heleen Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: adjichristine Post Reply
08/25/2009, 05:26:59

The baby blues are just my favorite!! I have some Jumbo sized ones that I collected bead by bead! I was never offered nor have i ever seen an African trader with a whole, long strand of the real big ones! They make the most striking necklace! Congratulations on your collection!You have outstanding beads!



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Please describe their perforations!
Re: Re: "Dutch" Beads -- Heleen Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/25/2009, 11:48:26

I will bet that many are sleek and shiny.

Jamey



Modified by Beadman at Wed, Aug 26, 2009, 03:13:38

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Re: Please describe their perforations! ????
Re: Please describe their perforations! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: adjichristine Post Reply
08/25/2009, 14:14:47



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Are you surprised..., confused..., or what?
Re: Re: Please describe their perforations! ???? -- adjichristine Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/25/2009, 16:00:59



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I fell through a hole in the wall.............
Re: Please describe their perforations! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: DOGBONECRAZY Post Reply
08/25/2009, 14:44:02



Modified by DOGBONECRAZY at Tue, Aug 25, 2009, 15:09:00

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